Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Alice waded through one of the filthiest sewers of one of the wickedest minds of Roshar. This week, I get to read about pretty eels! Our distribution of labor continues to be, like, INSANE fair.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 30: Nature Blushing
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: A Sheltered Lait in the Frostlands
Symbology: Pattern, Shalash, Palah
IN WHICH Shallan spots color in the Frostlands; Sketches are made of nature and of Gaz; Memories are taken; Shallan ponders the many people she could be; Shallan discovers a talent for sketching speculation; Tyn gives her a fright, makes her blush, causes Carl to mutter to himself in the corner about how right he is; Shallan is accused of being naïve and unbroken, which is really only half true; Shallan successfully lies to the liar, once again; Tyn helps Shallan plan her “betrothal con”; Adolin is revealed to be a terrible flirt, causing no small amount of concern in his bride-to-be; Shallan determines to figure out a way to deal with Tyn, but not before one more sketch.
Quote of the Week:
Tyn grinned, reaching Shallan’s stone. “Always fast with a quip. I like that. I need to introduce you to some friends of mine once we reach the Shattered Plains. They’ll spoil you right quick.”
“That doesn’t sound very pleasant.”
“Nonsense,” Tyn said, hopping up onto a dry part of the next rock over. “You’d still be yourself. Your jokes would merely be dirtier.”
“Lovely,” Shallan said, blushing.
SEE? SEE? I’m TELLING you!
Commentary: Let’s talk about sketches, because the stuff going down in Shallan’s sketchbook is freaky-deeky. In this chapter we see a progression of the uses of Shallan’s artistic talent. First, she sketches the wildlife around her, in as accurate a rendering as she can. These sketches are intended to be instructive, academically useful, scientifically categorized, and so she attempts to apply no interpretive lens to them. She, of course, fails. There is no representation of life through words or image that isn’t filtered through a heavy lens, and in this case her perception is colored by her longing for her father’s estates, where the gardens were beautiful and safe. Here she has to worry about potential whitespines, and she’ll have to leave the safety of the lait for the Frostlands. That being said, this is her most “realistic” set of drawings.
Next she draws Gaz, as she’s been drawing all the deserters by request. This she intentionally embellishes:
She tidied up his uniform, smoothing out his paunch, taking liberties with his chin. Most of the difference, however, had to do with his expression. Looking up, into the distance. With the right expression, that eye patch became noble, that scarred face became wise, that uniform became a mark of pride. She filled it with some light details reminiscent of that night beside the fires, when the people of the caravan had thanked Gaz and the others for their rescue.
This better-than-life portraiture is deeply entangled with Shallan’s capacity for Lightweaving. As Pattern indicates, and she confirms, the drawing is both a lie and a truth. It’s Gaz as someone sees him, as he wants to be seen, but not as he would appear in an unaltered photograph. The thing about this sketch, and about combat-Lightweaving, is that the lie makes itself more true by being told. Gaz is more like the picture now than he was before. His paunch is probably less pronounced, even, considering that confidence leads to better posture. Later in the book we’ll see Shallan sketching idealized versions of herself for the purposes of Lightweaving, and they become central to her assumption of other personalities.
Last are the sketches Shallan makes without thinking about them. These confuse the Damnation out of me. Take a look:
She paused, noticing what she’d drawn: a rocky shore near the ocean, with distinctive cliffs rising behind. The perspective was distant; on the rocky shore, several shadowy figures helped one another out of the water. She swore one of them was Yalb.
And then:
She turned the page and drew what came to her. A sketch of a woman kneeling over a body, raising a hammer and chisel, as if to slam it down into the person’s face. The one beneath her was stiff, wooden… maybe even stone?
Okay, what the dang. I have no idea if Yalb survived the crash, but certain events later in the book make it more than an outside possibility. The other thing, though? How the cuss words is Shallan drawing Shalash on her statue-smashing spree? She’s not one of the classes Orders of Knights Radiant that gets to see the future, is she? Has she ever seen Shalash? Maybe she’s recalling something she saw subconsciously, but which is blocked from her conscious mind, like with the Liespren, but that doesn’t explain her potential vision of Yalb.
What’s crazy is that these are the most speculative, but they might be literally prophetic/clairvoyant. I can’t deal with this, comment section, take over.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered: There’s a gorgeous description of the lait in this chapter, full of all kinds of mobile plants and feral puppylobsters, but my words will be far less descriptive than Shallan’s sketches. Feast your eyebrains.
Ars Arcanum: SHALLAN ARE YOU A MAGIC DRAWMASTER FROM SPACE???
Heraldic Symbolism: Palah, who represents Learned and Giving, approves of Shallan’s scholarship and her generosity with her talents in re: Gaz. Shalash is probably here because, dude, Shalash is here, on the page, getting herself drawn somehow. Do you think she’ll come and rip up Shallan’s sketchbook?
Shipping Wars: Because my true heart ship of Shallatyn is about to strike the shoals of stabbing, let’s talk about the other shipteases in this chapter.
“Which one is it, by the way? The older one or the younger one?”
“Adolin,” Shallan said.
“Hmmm… Not sure if that’s better or worse than Renarin. Adolin Kholin is a flirt by reputation, so I can see why his father wants him married off. It will be tough to keep his attention, though.”
“Really?” Shallan asked, feeling a spike of real concern.
This section is both cute, because Shallan fretting about her potentially flighty oath-husband is adorable, and hilarious, because Shallan/Renarin was THE SHIP people obsessed about between books one and two. Even I figured that Shallan was more likely to get with Renarin than Adolin or Kaladin, because come on, books girl + glasses boy = forever times. Sanderson is laughing to split his sides at the people who pulled for that, basically sticking a RAFO card in the middle of his own book.
I love that Shallan takes all of Tyn’s advice on how to keep Adolin’s interests. It’s almost like they’re still together even after their, ahem, falling out.
Give a boy his dreams.
That’s all for this week! Next week Alice gets Kaladin AND Shallan! Bounteous harvest!
Carl Engle-Laird is an editorial assistant at Tor.com, where he acquires and edits original fiction. You can follow him on Twitter here.
In many ways, Shallan’s use of quips is as much a defense mechanism as her intentionally forgetting how she killed her mother.
I find it interesting that at least 2 characters used different means to forget a critical loss in their life. Shallan is able to cause her mind to go blank when somebody discusses the events of her mother’s death or something causes her to start to remember that night. Dalinar sought “old magic” to remove the pain of the loss of his wife. The result is that he cannot even hear her name spoken in his mind or picture what she looks like, let alone the pain of her loss.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
Wouldn’t the helping each other out of the water one be in the past though? It’s been awhile since the wreck, so it doesn’t seem like current or future viewing.
Crap, what’s the technical term for clairvoyance of past events? ‘Cause it looks like that’s what Shallan is doing.
So that whole speculative/prophetic drawing business drives me insane, because we don’t have any hints anywhere else that Lightweavers can see the future. So here’s my current not-very-well-examined theory for people to rip apart:
The Heralds form a circular continuum between Honor and Cultivation. The Bondsmiths, at the top center of the endpaper diagram, are (almost?) entirely of Honor, while the Truthwatchers directly “opposite” are (almost?) entirely of Cultivation. This would make the Orders in the upper half tend more toward Honor’s character; probably not coincidentally, these are the Orders associated with the male Heralds. The Orders in the lower half, with the female Heralds, would be more oriented toward Cultivation’s character and priorties. (It also has some interesting implications regarding the Skybreakers, Dustbringers, Elsecallers, and Willshapers, those four being the closest to “balanced” between the two Shards.)
In any case, should this theory be true, it would explain how Truthwatchers, most closely tied to Cultivation, would be the most able to see into the future; it would also make it slightly more probable that both Lightweavers and Edgedancers would have greater access to “prophetic visions” or whatever you call them. Maybe it’s not just the future, though; maybe it’s an overall ability to see more – past, present, or future – which is sheer speculation, but it makes the theory relevant. :D In this chapter, Shallan’s viewing of maybe-Yalb & co. would have to be past-unseen; the drawing of Shalash could be any time, or no time in particular.
Anyway, that’s all I’ve got. I really, really want to know how this seeing-the-unseen business works. Mabye more will come to light in book 3? I can hope…
Andrew @1 – “Dalinar sought “old magic” to remove the pain of the loss of his wife. The result is that he cannot even hear her name spoken in his mind or picture what she looks like, let alone the pain of her loss.” Don’t forget – that first sentence is only speculation. We don’t actually know yet why he sought the Nightwatcher; we only know that as a result, he cannot remember anything about his wife. It’s reasonable speculation, but unconfirmed as yet. (At least, as far as I know. Correct me if you’ve seen a WoB on the subject.)
I’m glad I’m not the only one wondering how Shallan could pull those drawings out of nowhere. The sailors getting out of the water could have been a subconscious hope, but Shalash? Not so much. @3 Wetlandernw, your theory seems plausible to me.
Prophetic/clairvoyant? Eh. I don’t really think that’s the explanation for the mysterious sketches. The skecth of Shalash may be because she is well connected to the Herald. Shallan=Shalash, it was said before Shalash is Shallan’s namesake. More obviously Shallan is a member of the Order Shalash is the patron. They share an affinity for visual aesthetics, this one is a stretch I know. I only say it though because, and I’m not sure if this has been confirmed or not, Shalash( Baxil’s Mistress) has been destroying visual representations of herself. She’s also destroying other artwork. One of the themes in the series is bonds/connections. Maybe there were connections between the Heralds and the respective Orders, or just specific memebers.
The sketch of Yalb I felt was her sketching her feelings in the form of artwork. The tragedy of the events on the ship still bothers her. In her unfocused state she was more in tune with her emotions and other nascent bonds.
3. Wetlandernw
That is what I have been thinking about the organization of the KR orders. But your point about seeing the future/past/else is interesting and persuasive. The ancient term for that is seer. Is this suggesting some kind of flow of power and thought between Shallan, Shallash and/or Cultivation?
I’d had the thought that maybe some kind of spren are observing and sending her images, rather than her having an innate ability. Although with the spren and the bond, that line is always pretty fuzzy. It seems that since Taravangian is using the death speeches as both a window in time and as a link to monitor some other creature (presumably a darkspren of some kind that the Parshendi would have liked to avoid), that Shallan may be tapping into something similar. Or maybe the Cryptics are just dropping by and trying to feed her info rather than haunting her nearby drawings. I do just like the idea of Shallan having a scouting team.
WRT Shallan’s seemingly clarivoyant drawings: Remember that Lightweavers and Truthwatchers share the Surge of Illumination, so Shallan actually might have been demonstrating divination there. It’s also possible that the Shalash sketch, at least, is somehow leaking from Shalash into Shallan, given that Shalash is patron of the Lightweavers.
And on another note, has anyone else noticed that Shallan was almost certainly named after Shalash? I wonder if that had any impact on her development as a Lightweaver?
Off topic, but it occurs to me, that perhaps the reason spren on the Cultivation side of the spectrum were more interested and helpful, is that Cultivation is still alive, while those on the Honor side were more reluctant, is that all they have to look towards is the (slightly unhinged) Stormfather.
Carl
You and Alice both get some very nifty chapters before the next round of interludes.
Heraldic Symbolism
Shallan is warp-speed creative with her drawing in this chapter. The honest attribute, well…certainly in a way Pattern appreciates. Yeah, that’s a stretch.
Does anyone doubt that Shallan and Ash will meet in person at some point? That will be most interesting, but I hope Ash doesn’t rip up drawings (Shallan) made of her.
Spren spotting
Lifespren, have seen them often.
ETA
ZenBossanova @9
I’m thinking the same thing.
How’s this for a random theory:
Naming is seen as important on Roshar, with symmetry considered divine. What if there’s a grain of truth in that, so that Shallan and Shallash having names so close can actually tap into each other. It won’t work (necessarily) for regular people, but if you are named as one of the heralds maybe you got to channel him / her. And that’s why people stopped using the perfect symmetry settling for names that are almost, but not quite that.
All I could think while reading the passages in the book when she’s slightly improving people’s look (though in her case, look entails essence of personality/hopes/dreams, etc.) is that Shallan is airbrushing. But for the sake of good. Hopefully she won’t start working for Roshan Vogue or something fixing Roshan Naomi Campbell’s blemishes in order to sell bikini Shardplate.
Oh,… bikini shardplate…
We need that.
It strikes me as noteworthy that the things Shallan draws are relatively insignificant in terms of the upheavals that Roshar has been undergoing lately. She doesn’t see Szeth, or what Taravangian is up to; she doesn’t see people central to the events on the Shattered Plains; she doesn’t see anything relating to the civil war in Jah Keved. Instead, she sees seemingly less important things… which may indicate that we are underestimating their actual importance.
Additionally, she doesn’t see Taln, or Jezrien, or Kalak, or Nin… who all may be more centrally involved in current events… she sees Shalash, who’s on some one-woman mission to eradicate herself, or the arts she once patronized. No, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Shallan the Lightweaver sees Shalash the patron of Lightweavers.
Furthermore, IMHO, here are some of Shallan’s most pressing concerns at this point in no particular order:
1. Sadness over Jasnah
2. The fate of her brothers
3. How to deal with her newfound powers
4. Voidbringers, Urithiru, and saving the world
5. Her betrothal to Adolin
6. Plain old day to day survival… and Tyn.
Now that’s a lot to deal with psychologically, and if these “visions” were actually her subconscious speaking, I’m surprised that none of her real concerns were addressed. (I know she likes Yalb, but if wishful thinking was the etiology, I’d expect a Jasnah image).
Just my thoughts.
Somehow I could see Shallan actually making that by thinking it – or heck, maybe some kind of Shard-vest, which would touch on that one silly little joke from later on in the chasms.
As for her mystical drawings, I admit I never really thought on it much, but I like the idea that it comes from a connection to Cultivation. We’ve seen with Kaladin that, even though it doesn’t necessarily fit into what Windrunners can do, he’s had the vision of the world as the storm (likely due to the obvious Honor connection).
Hi everyone! Occasional poster and long-time lurker here in the storm-cellar! Here’s a quick thought I just had re: Yalb & Co. When saving everyone from the ship burning (poor ship!), she saw their cognitive aspets in Shadesmar; what if that created some kind of connection that only her unconscious mind could use? It’s a stretch, I know, but it also (kinda) explains her drawing Pattern when he was still in the Cognitive realm and unseen
As for why she didn’t draw Jasnah, maybe she was either too far away (i.e NOT on Roshar) or perhaps still physically in Shadesmar, and therefore invisible to Shalllan.
I am a long time lurker on the reread and in the Storm Cellar – I am finally caught up now with the reread and may comment from time to time too. But before I add my feable comments, thank you Carl and Alice for all the wonderful insights. And thank you for all of you who comment – it is so much fun to read the ideas and the dialogue. It brings out so much that I am often completely oblivious to.
The drawings of Yalb and Shalash are intruiging indeed! I am convinced that they are really clairvoyant and I would be shocked if Yalb turns out to be dead anyway. The reason is that the second drawing, the one of Shalash, is something that we know is true and that it is something that Shallan cannot possibly know. That makes it fairly obvious that the first one is true as well. Now Brandon Sanderson is perfectly capable of purposefully giving us the wrong impression, but this seems too much in line with some other things we have seen already.
We already know that Shallan is able to draw what normally cannot be seen – she did that with the Cryptics when they were pursuing her. In some way her drawing seems to bring out an unseen part of reality. The question is of course what exacly she can see and why.
I like the @3 Wetlandernw theory. Another possibility is that it a somewhat unique skill that comes about because of the combination of lightweaving and her unique drawing skills. Could it be that Illumination is more than just creating something with light; that it also grants the capacity to observe more – in a way she would be both a special receptor and emitter of light. That opens up all sort of interesting possibilities. I wonder if even drawing the deserters went beyond just ‘airbrushing’ or creating a new reality and that it was also a real way of seeing into their past or future.
WindedRunner @17
Nice analysis. Keep it up!
I believe these are visions that have already occurred not future visions. Yalb would have been rescued days before not in the future.
17. WindedRunner
I like that bit about Illumination.
I expect we will see that on steroids with Renarin, since the Truthwatchers share that surge.
Shipping wars… I was not involved in any of the shipping wars in between WoK and WoR. I therefore do not have an opinion as to whom I would have shipped Shallan’s with prior to having read WoR. That being said, I am however amused, right now, to see so many people having falsely shipped Shallan and Renarin simply because she is a scholar and he is an introverted boy whose talent we still need to discover.
After reading WoR, I could not think of a most ill-fitted union than these two…
Somewhere, Brandon is laughing out load of the fandom. Simply because a ship appears like a common trope, it may not come to life.
Yeah, wasn’t Shallan downright irratated at Renarin in the climactic scenes?
Edit: (not that she wasn’t also irratated at Kaladin, but that was … different)
@3Wetlandernw
Clairvoyance? Definitely. Remember in WoK when Shallan sketches not just one unseen Cryptic, but several? From this we all know that she can sketch things that she can’t actually see but are still real. So because of this, she can see Shalash through her sketches, as well as maybe Yalb. If you’ve read that whole teaser thing where Jasnah meets with Hoid, then you know that at least one person survivied, and that person was stabbed. It’s very possible that a seasoned sailor like Yalb could survive along with some others.
Whenever Shallan just lets go to sketch, the present comes out, or at least that’s my speculation, and so she can see things that are going on at the moment. I like the whole Honor to Cultivation theory, it seems to work well.
Bikini Shardplate… I wonder if I’ll ever be able to unsee that mental image…
WindedRunner @17 – You’re most welcome, and I’m glad you joined in! I find that my best thoughts on the books come out of the discussion, generally. We’re just… better together, or something. That’s why I love these group rereads!
@22 Kaladin and Shallan also makes me think of a common trope ship: the two antagonist who starts of hating each other until they irrevocably fall for each other…. In fact, I thought it was so common I was irritated to see hints of it while reading WoR. Somehow, I thought the Adolin/Shallan ship was more refreshing. Needless to say I will sink with this ship.
Somehow, the fact Brandon did not go with the anticipated ship makes me think he won’t go with the Kaladin/Shallan ship either, but this is pure speculation on my part. As for the Renarin/Shallan ship, whereas the story could have gone this way after WoK, the character development we have seen from both individual makes it unlikely at best.
There’s also how Kaladin and Shallan are the first two major viewpoint characters we met – I think it was in his annotations for book one of Mistborn where Sanderson mentioned how it’s sometimes expected that the first couple of viewpoints will eventually be in a relationship (in reference to how Vin and Kelsier got shipped but he never saw it that way) – I wouldn’t be surprised if the same goes here.
Me, I’m on the Adolin-Shallan ship as well – I’ll sink with it, if it goes down. But y’all make excellent points about the “expected” tropes that Brandon so loves to destroy, so I have high hopes for my ship. :) Most of the arguments I’ve seen against it come pretty close to my reasons for really wanting it to happen, too. Not sure what that proves, except my innate contrariness, maybe. But I’m not alone in that either – not in this group!
I don’t ship Shallan with anyone yet, but if I were to…Carl has been so convincing with his femslash support, maybe book 3 Shallan could experiment with those feelings. She would just need to find someone she could trust wouldn’t turn against her, who has a somewhat similar sense of humor…one who can keep Pattern away when he keeps bothering her about the past? That would be a bonus anyways.
But the only character who fits that bill is Syl…
@27: Count me in in your ship. It does not have to be rational. For my part, I have always preferred the Shallan/Adolin dynamic then the Kaladin/Shallan dynamic. I feel, the Kaladin/Shallan potential ship has been done over and over again: I have no desire to see it coming to life. Their endless bickering would make any relationship painful not to mention the fact Shallan manages to remind Kaladin of both his mother and his brother. I would not call this solid ground for a serious relationship.
It has always been my opinion Shallan actually needs someone who would care for her (as she never had anyone), even if she won’t admit it. Needless to say WoR made it obvious Shallan is the perfect girl for Adolin. She cares for him (he needs someone who would love him), she is smart, but not in a bad way. I have always felt Shallan and Adolin strengths and weaknesses complemented each other whereas Shallan and Kaladin’s would end up being conflictual.
Also, the handsome prince trope is not one I feel was overly done in the past years. In most cases, the rich catch ends up being mean and despicible (Frozen) or dumb (Prince Charming). It thus makes the Adolin/Shallan ship much is less common in today’s world.
Just my two cents anyway. As I said, I will sink with this ship. Adolin and Shallan have been adorable since the second they met whereas reading the Kaladin/Shallan interaction made me want to through my book away. Besides, there is nothing wrong with falling for the nice guy, once in a while.
Even if it would not make a great romantic relationship between Shallan and Kaladin, (and regardless, I don’t think they are going to get together) but I think there will be some latent attraction.
It almost felt like the whole last part was keeping them mostly apart so nothing could come of that, especially with Kaladin having to fly away at the beginning of next book (plenty of justified reasons of course, but I could see someone making the case for it doing so).
That said I think it’s too soon to see – I always go back and forth on stuff like this, because Sanderson loves to go against trope, but at what point is something such a standard twist that going with the standard IS the bigger surprise? I’ve debated myself for hours on this very point on Dalinar needing to choose a “champion”. (Well, Kaladin has every indication of being the main character, so obviously it can’t be him…except wait, what if that’s the point? It being him WOULD be a shock then, so…but no that’s silly. Well wait what if the whole twist is there being a need for a champion at all? We even know Honor is both fallible and couldn’t see the future too well…) <– repeat for way too long in the early hours of the morning.
So you clearly put the poison in your own glass…
31. FenrirMoridin
That sounds like Vincini’s monologue about poison in The Princess Bride. … wait, 32. Xaladin beat me to it.
One thing I wanted to mention was the word ‘lait’.
I thought this was a real world word, though I can’t seem to find it anywhere, with the meaning given in WoR. Here, it means an area sheltered from storms. It sounds like it really should be a real word, with that meaning. This word could actually leap in to actual RL use if we let it.
Sooo my first though when reading the first line … lets talk about sketches ba..by lets talk about pens and ink and all the things that make art … sigh…not sure I get the love of shipping these too, I mean tyn is sooo far from the conwoman with a heart of gold… not evil really but certainly not good.
@24 why would you want to unsee that image …? And by our powers combined we are the way of the communitareit?
hmmm a shallan syl ship … I mean that would be one way to make lezbianism even MORE controversial in this world … and it might be like having an affair with light which since she is a lightweaver …. damn… I don’t usually engage in shipping wars but damn … do you need more crew?
Somehow I don’t think Shallan/Syl would really work out. But what about Syl/Pattern? That would be an interesting ship, and we could end up with this wierd pseudo-love-triangle thing with Adolin/Shallan–Pattern/Syl–Kaladin.
Hi everyone,
Shallans visions – I haven’t thought much about it, this is from how I ‘absorbed’ the books without much reflection and checking, so apologies if completely invalid.
I see Shallan’s access to Shadesmar as sort of being able to see the atomic structure of the world (yes atoms are components etc, but that’s where my brain goes). When’s she’s consciously in it she only experiences those things that are near her, but i’ve thought she would learn to experience things further afield, even without fully entering Shadesmar – everything is connected right! So I’ve thought these drawings as the beginnings of that.
Perhaps happening subconsciously with Pattern facilitating and ‘taking her’ to witness things her heart is seeking/worried about: fate of the ship, Yalb, Jasnah et al; and pointing her to Shallash as counter to her sorrow of losing Jasnah and her mother – protector, teacher, leader …
So the visions would be moments in a present happening elsewhere (present of experiencing the vision – not necessarily at the time of drawing in these two cases)
I suspect I’ll be proven wrong – but it definitely felt like a natural thing for someone with access to the cognitive real to be able to do (basically my brain did ‘mmm, ok!’ as opposed ‘mmm, what?!?How?’).
@33 ZenBossanova : I suspect ‘lait’ is latin influenced. I’m portuguese and ‘leito’ is a river bed (or actual bed, only more poetic than ‘cama’). When used metaphorically it definitely has connotations of protection, an embrace, peace, comfort. I know in french ‘lait’ is milk, but ‘lit’ is bed and you ‘lay’ down in English right? So probably a latin root to those terms
Also considering how ‘crem’ (pronounced like the French ‘crème’ brule in my head) is used in the novel then… dunno – I’m dairyed out and need a sleep! Who knows how Brandon got there exactly, but for a portuguese person lait made total sense and so did crem (although cremlings make me things of Kremlin underlings).
Thanks for reading – it’s my second post, first back in the summer, let’s not make a habit of this or I’ll never get out! Blog and everyone’s thoughts are always fun and really enhance my understanding of this awesome world – so thank you Carl, Alice and all :)
My ship is ShaKalAdolin for two reason:
1. Defuses the potential Arthur/Lancelot/Guinevere vibes I’m starting to feel. I don’t recall that Sanderson has gone to that particular well before and I’d really rather not have him start here.
2. It seems like the only viable route to KalAdolin in canon. Which isn’t usually a problem for me but it’s easier to get them together if they can keep Shallan, too. I think the affectionate/dominant possibilities of “bridgeboy” need to be explored in greater detail.
I had previously mentioned that ‘lait’ in the sense of a habitable platform is used by JRR Tolkien, a noted linguist as well as the creator of this fantasy genre. He invoked the term in referring to the sleeping platform in Lothlorien trees used by Elves. BWS is merely copying the ‘master’ in his use of the term as a sheltered terrain. As to romantic involvements for Shallan and Kaladin, there are only 2 realistic possibilities from what we know currently. The Shallan and Adolin ‘causal’ may develop into a full-fledged union if Adolin’s killing of Sadeas doesn’t have dire implications for him. Alternatively, the smoldering infatuation that Shallan and Kaladin now have for each other may yet burst into flame. I, personally, am in favor of the latter pairing, but BWS may have other ideas.
41. STBLST
Is that correct? I did a word search in The Fellowship of the Ring, and I didn’t see the word ‘lait’ at all.
@42 ZenBossanova, that is my distinct recollection which I had offered months ago when the matter first arose in a Reread. I did not then encounter a naysayer. However, I will have to dig up my copy of LOTR or get it electronically on Kindle. I hope to update late this weekend if the matter hasn’t been resolved by then.
Sorry about the ‘lait’ issue. I did a Google search for the word, Lothlorien where the Elves under Galadriel/Celeborn lived, and Caras Galadhon – the heart of Lothlorien. The latter yield the word ‘flet’ meaning a floor. It appears that this is the word I had mistaken for ‘lait’. If so, then I have no idea where Sanderson’s ‘lait’ originated.
Xaladin and ZenBossanova, I…didn’t even catch that. So I was subconsciously referencing The Princess Bride? That’s…
That’s…
inconceivable.
I completely missed that lait was made up – it just sounded right to me when I read it and I (mistakenly) assumed it was an actual English word. I blame English being an inherently flexible language, especially when it comes to the lexicon (which is the fastest moving part of a language anyways).
Leeward – Lait, they both begin with L, so we all made the connection maybe? (I thought it was a real word too)
Yeah, I’m completely baffled on this “lait” thing. I knew exactly what he meant when he said it, so I assumed it was normal, if not common, English. Buh. The only definition I can find that even comes close is the old English “light”… which isn’t exactly close.
The chisel thing: Hemalurgy? Perhaps Shallan is able to “see” things on other Cosmere worlds?
There’s no doubt that the chisel is a hemalurgic spike. First thing that came to mind when I saw the description.
Shipping: Shallan has taught Kaladin something he needed. (That not all lighteyes are terrible, that there are altenate ways to deal with the hard times life throws at you, not to be so quick to judge people by their appearances, etc) There might be a little attraction there, that’s realistic, but that doesn’t have to mean it becomes a Dreaded Love Triange. They don’t have to be Love Interests to still have something powerful to gain from having known each other. That in fact is my favorite trope subversion, when two characters we love can have a powerful, complicated, benefical working relationship with each other because of the separate things they each bring to it as people, without that necesarilly being Romantic Love.
So far I think Brandon has done well with this. Yes, I am concerned that we’re going to get derailed into an annoying Love Triangle, but so far what has happened with each character feels realistic, and I fully trust in Brandon’s ability to surprise me, and amaze me, with a story that feels correct.
Prophetic Sketches: I really did not know what to make of this. I know it is a deliberate and impotant detail, included to help something make sense later, but right now I don’t know enough. I sure do hope Yalb survived, although that would make quite a few “dead” characters who don’t stay that way.
Fortunately, Brandon doesn’t like Love Triangles either. Whatever happens, I doubt it will be a Love Triangle. Not that he couldn’t surprise us…
One of the things that JK Rowling did right (no matter what her later thoughts on how she should have done it were) was to have Harry and Hermione be good, but platonic friends.
Kaladin found another “Tien”: someone who could help him combat the worst of his depression (I’m not sure she taught him that so much as she let him accept it – part of what makes depression so insidious is how it drains away at you, so even if you know you have to change, you can’t drive yourself to make it). I wonder, if Tien had been an older brother instead of younger, but served the same role…would Kaladin have attached on to Adolin that way instead?
As for a love triangle…I don’t know, I find it hard to think of Kaladin in one – he latches onto guilt so quickly, and he likes Adolin. He’d be miserable if he thought he was tearing the two of them apart, especially since he’d also have the guilt for…well you know. That thing Shallan blames Amaram for later on.
So, thinking about it, I’ve come up with my own theory, one that adds on a bit to Wetlandernw’s: if Shallan is closer to Cultivation, what if she got visions of two people Cultivation herself are interested in? Assuming Yalb survived, it wouldn’t be that surprising for him to be a possible future Radiant just based on character significance (he was a fun personality, and maybe being saved the way he was marked him? plus it’s not like people can’t act cheery and hide a sad backstory, Shallan is proof of that). And Shallash is important – even other Heralds worry about what she’s doing, so it’d be unsurprising Cultivation is maybe watching her. So then what if Shallan is just accidentally tapping into that occurrence? It’d be a side effect of being a Lightweaver, and would make it similar (yet different) from when Kaladin rides the storms (since that would be him accidentally tapping into Honor…or what’s left of it). Kind of a weak connection, but it would explain why both Shallan and Kaladin have differing types of visions when, by all accounts, neither should have ANY kind of vision.
@50 You make a valid point in stating Shallan was needed to help Kaladin overcome his hatred of lighteyes. However, such a relationship does not strike me as “romantic”, but “friendly”. It is obvious Kaladin is attracted to Shallan, but not all attractions lead to a romantic relationship. In RL, we are often attracted to people, but it does not mean we would enter a long term relationship with them.
Please no love triangle…. Or no two men and one women working relationship. Do not pull a WoT on us where Rand managed to be with three women at the same time and have each one of them happy with it…..
@52 I do not understand you link with Tien being a potential older brother and the Adolin/Kaladin growing bromance…? Adolin is older than Kaladin, not younger. However, neither of them are seeing each other of adoptive siblings, but as equals. Both are in dire need for a
besr friend and in thids regard, they are well fitted for each other. I feel I am missing your point.
I agree Kaladin would not purposely break the Shallan/Adolin bethrotal. Never. He has come to like Adolin and he saw how happy he is with Shallan.
As for Shallan being of Cultivation, well it does bode in favor of Adolin potentially being of Cultivation as well. I think we can all agree Adolin would never make it to any Honor oriented order. His current possibilites are either Edgedancers or Dustbringers, though I am now routing for the first one.
@48 and 49
My first thought on reading your comments was “But why spike a statue?” We have a bit of evidence for Shalash destroying images of herself, so I assumed (yeah, yeah) that it was a statue she was kneeling (over). Looking at the text again, though, that’s not necessarily the case (“…body…stiff, wooden…stone?”).
I’m not completely behind the Shalash-is-doing-something-with-hemalurgy-not-just-destroying-images-of-herself theory, but it is a possibility.
So now we can speculate on a whole new topic: Why is Shalash messing with hemalurgy? Is she removing or adding an attribute to whatever she is spiking? A spike to whatever’s face suggests the eyes (more than earlobes) as bind points to me. So an iron or steel chisel and the attribute is (essentially) strength, right? Maybe there’s some awakening going on here too (might as well drag Nalthis into the mix). Now…I have to consider that Shalash is a world hopper.
Y’all started this. Where’s it lead? ;-)
@53: Maybe I should have clarified: my idea was branching off of how Kaladin attached to Shallan the same significance Tien had – a younger sibling who could act cheery to off-set his own depression. You’re right that Kaladin and Adolin are, at least by the end of WoR, slowly starting to become good friends – probably because Adolin is the first person fairly close to his age that Kaladin is close to that he isn’t in command of (which is why Moash became a problem but that is irrelevant to the topic at hand). Your right though that neither sees the other as an adoptive sibling, and why would they? Kaladin has never had an older sibling, and Renarin is very different than Kaladin. That was, in short, my point – if Tien was older, and Kaladin’s supportive sibling relationship he lost was older, then would he have felt that way toward Adolin?
It was a mental exercise in what-if, so there wasn’t really a point so much as idle speculation, so no wonder you missed it.
(I also may have been thinking on it because of The Way of Kings Prime – Adolin and Kaladin have a different relationship in that one, as Adolin basically trains proto-Kaladin for how to be a lighteyed Shardbearer).
Apologies for any confusion though, that was very much an “idle consideration not with bearing to the actual narrative of the books.”
53. Gepeto
Dustbringer is on the Honor side of the diagram, and I think that is the best possibility for Adolin. He is very honorable… he was just willing to break the rules to defend friends and family. He is definately more honorable than he is cultivating.
@55 Thanks for clarifying your thoughts. I was initially puzzled by your first post. Adolin sure does not feel responsible for Kaladin as he feels responsible for Renarin and Kaladin sure does not look up to Adolin for guidance. However, since Adolin and Tien are very different, I doubt Kaladin would associate Adolin with his potential older brother. As for Adolin, he never linked Kaladin with is younger sibling. He has always seemed eye to eye with Kaladin, like two alpha males fighting over the ownership of the school yard.
I did not read WoK Prime, but it has been my understanding both Aredor and Merrin are much different character then Adolin and Kaladin.
@56 Dustbringers are right under Skybreakers in the chart which put them in the Cultivation part of the spectrum. If that is not the case, then I have been reading the chart wrong for the longest time… Adolin is honorable, as long as his loved ones are not threaten. When push comes to shove, Adolin will do what he feels is right, no matter how honorable it may be. The fact he is willing to break all rules to defend family and friends makes him the perfect Edgedancer. Neither Kaladin nor Dalinar would go as far. Love is Adolin’s driving force, much more than bravery. It took me a long time to comprehend this.
Yes, Dustbringers are on the Cultivation end of the spectrum, by my little theory. It looks something like this:
__________(Honor)__________
_________Bondsmiths_________
__Stonewards_____Windrunners__
Willshapers__________Skybreakers
————–perfect balance—————
Elsecallers__________Dustbringers
__Lightweavers____Edgedancers__
________Truthwatchers________
_________(Cultivation)________
This assumes everything is more or less confirmed regarding the position of the Orders, which I think it has. If Adolin has an affinity for the Dustbringers, it would put him slightly on the Cultivation side of the perfect balance; matters of honor would be important to them (more than Edgedancers, Lightweavers or Truthwatchers), but not the highest priority (less than everyone above the balance line).
Something very interesting I just noticed… this makes Illumination and Progression the two Surges neares Cultivation… Seems like the implications might be profound. I really, really need to find out if this theory is true!
Ahhhhh (primal scream of happy frustration)!
Now that just makes me even more curious about what Tension is! Because it would then be, with Adhesion, the closest to Honor, but we haven’t seen it at all yet iirc!
Also, with the whole chart laid out like that, it makes me realize that Kaladin and Shallan are also perfectly opposite in terms of Surges…only appropriate I guess, considering all the ways they are already opposites.
That said, not sure if I’d try to put Adolin on the chart as a Knight Radiant yet…too much about that bit with Sadeas at the end seemed like big red flags. Which I guess just makes it reason 374 why I can’t wait for book 3!
Well, Adolin is certainly not a Radiant yet, or even visibly on that path, but “that bit with Sadeas” is only a problem for certain Orders (like Windrunners, or probably Bondsmiths); WoB is that some Orders would think it was a perfectly proper thing for him to have done. So it doesn’t preclude Radiant-hood from the spren perspective; from his own… that might be different. He might just decide that he’s unworthy and spend the next two books refusing to bond with a spren – but I hope not, because that sounds too much like an emo trope that I don’t want hung around his neck!
I’m more worried it means he might have a veeeeery deeply repressed rage problem – which I think is just me overreacting to that last moment, and some of the word choice. “…something finally snapped.” “completely, totally, irrevocably enraged.” And basically his horror when he realized what he did. Doesn’t help, right after this moment when he became like past Dalinar, the Blackthorn, that we then go right to Dalinar taking the final step past that as he assumes the mantle of the Bondsmiths fully.
It feels like Adolin is the most vulnerable character going into the next book, but then those are the same cracks a spren needs to do his/her work~
(As an aside, in the heady mix of glee and horror when I first read that part, my first reaction was that it’s a pity he won’t tell Shallan – soulcasting the body into smoke would be a pretty solid way of disposing the body. Abuse of her power, maybe, but sure would be helpful).
My bad, guy. You were right. I looked at the diagram wrong. Dustbringer is on the Cultivation side.
One thing I wonder, is if each sentient spren, has a corresponding dumb spren, like honor spren and windspren. What sentient spren corresponds with flamespren? Just curious.
@54, I was wrong. When I read “The one beneath her” in the summary, I assumed a third person. But there’s only Shalash and the statue.
It is true we know some orders would accept Adolin as he is, some would even applaud. Elsecallers, for example, do not mind cold-blooded murder. It is thus safe to assume Adolin’s actions do not preclude him from being a Radiant.
However, Adolin himself may see it differently… No doubt, with his entire family now being a Radiant and him having to deal with being a murderer, he’ll find himself unworthy. The thought of ever joining their ranks probably won’t even cross his mind.
My guess have always been Adolin would need strong incentive to say the oaths and put himself on the path to becoming a Radiant. He’ll need someone or something to push him down this road as I doubt he’ll even think it a possibility.
I do not think Adolin has a repressed rage issue.. He is a very emotional young man and like most emotionally driven people, he’s got a threshold. Being an emotional person myself, I can see why he snapped and lashed out in anger. Sometimes, such individuals get so overwhelmed by events they just blow of. It is a completely natural reaction from someone with his personality type. However, in his case, his anger was directed at someone who threatened his loved ones, the people he cared the most for. Thus he killed (let’s not forget this is Roshar, not RL). Very extreme, but not necessarily an issue for the future. Most likely he’ll be so horrified, he’ll try very hard to control himself better. However, emotional people tend to be very vulnerable to the flow of things. Adolin has way too much on his plate right now. He’ll need someone to help him offload it all, if not, he’ll keep on overflowing and losing control.
My guess is his family will think he has lost his mind in the next book… He’ll become very unstable and they won’t know how to deal with him.
AhoyMatey @63
Pretty sure I get where you are going, but a couple of questions are bothering me…
Was the target of Shalash’s chisel really a statue? You threw some reasonable doubt into that equation. And…Must the donor and recipient of hemalurgic spiking be in immediate proximity when the spiking occurs, or can the spike store the attribute (investiture) for a little while? I don’t remember Mistborn well enough without checking. Or maybe Shalash is a Ferruchemist who can store investiture.
Yeah, my @54 was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, in an attempt to stoke the fires, but I do think you raised an interesting possiblity. This thread just happened to take off in a different direction about the same time.
And thanks to Wetlandernw @60
for the nifty text rendering of some of the info on The Endplate. I’m pretty sure that’s all WoB now, even the part about the blends of Honor and Cultivation in the various orders. No, I don’t have a reference handy. And I got lost here for an hour or so trying to find it: 17thsharddotcom/forum/topic/7267-words-of-brandon-compiled-x-2/?p=119919. Good stuff there.
Did find a few miscellaneous tidbits relevant to the is-Shalash-practicing-hemalurgy question:
Q: Would a Hemalurgic spike take surges?
A: Hemalurgy can interact with every one of the magics. I designed it
specifically in writing Mistborn for future use. Because some of the
magics are so limited by their planet I wanted one that transcended all
of them and Hemalurgy is very important to the entire Cosmere. Its
invention is a thing of great power and great danger to the entire
Cosmere.
Q: Have people not from/on Scadrial used Hemalurgy?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you could Hemalurgically Spike a dead thing, similar to how Breath goes into dead things? Could you spike a Lifeless?
A: Yes, if there was enough of the soul left for the Spike to take. (I
regret not asking if Allomantic Lifeless could be a thing)
Ways @65: It works best if you drive the spike directly into both at the same time, but it can definitely hold a charge. (pauses to check actual reference)
@66
Thanks for that!
What if…Shalash is spiking a surge (into/out of?) something/body almost dead. The possibilities are vast. Perhaps there is something to this looney theory. Or at least a new (I think) question for Brandon to RAFO.
All this talk of statues reminds me of Lifeless and Phantoms…
I just wanted to say that I ADORE your commentary, Carl Engle-Laird. I don’t think I’ve laughed out loud this hard since my fabulous k-drama last week (which is still saying a lot, because that’s the funniest show I’ve ever encountered). You also almost convinced me to jump ships! (Okay, let’s be honest, it’s not happening, but still. I was ALMOST convinced.)
The citation from WOB that haemalurgy works throughout the Cosmere is interesting and lends expectation that we will yet encounter it in the Stormlight series. Recall that this viscious magic involves brutally killing the ‘donor(s)’ by driving spikes through them and then through the recipient. One can speculate that Odium may make use of this technique in forming his champion. A possible recipient candidate is Kaladin’s former friend and Shardbearer, Moash – shades of Marsh? I would hope that the involuntary ‘donor’ is not Kaladin, himself. In any case, Shallan’s subconscious drawing of Shalash destroying what appears to be a statue does not appear to involve such a process. Shalash has been defacing and destroying art = both pictorial and statuary for some time. It appears to stem from a self-hatred exhibited by this former symbol of beauty.
Xaladin @68
Exactly.
STBLST @70
Are you certain? I didn’t read between the lines until maheskb @48 and AhoyMatey @49 suggested the hemalurgy possibility. Investiture can be stored by several methods (so the 3rd person would not have to be present at that moment). Admittedly, it’s a low-probability, fringe theory; and simple explanations are usually best, but it is possible. I wouldn’t put it past BWS to pull a switcheroo like that.
@71 Ways: No, I’m not certain especially since BWS had a tendency to play with the reader’s assumptions. The notion that hemalurgy is involved is a reach, however. Shalash has been busy defacing and destroying art for some time. The rigid body being attacked with a hammer and chisel is seemingly lifeless. While BWS has stated that the presence of soul within some apparently lifeless body would be sufficient, there is no indication that the rigid thing still has soul. One would have to soulcast a living person into a statue, it seems to me, in order to fulfill the BWS requirement. Moreover, the person in question would need to have been at least a surgebinder for the supposed spike to gather any ‘useful’ power. I supp0se that a Denethir stone statue (one of Kalad – Vasher’s lifeless) would do. That would assume that Vasher- Zahel took one with him in his world-hopping from Nalthis to Roshar.
ZenBossanova @@@@@ 62 – My pet theory is that each of the orders of KR has a sentient spren with which they bond and an associated “dumb spren”. I’d like to think that these would become the various pieces of Shardplate, in much the same way that the sentient spren become the Shardblade. I don’t know of any textual evidence to really back this up, however – this is mostly speculation.
One thing I do think is pertinent is looking at how the windspren react around Kaladin when he’s doing his Windrunner training montage and comparing that to how the creationspren react around Shallan when she draws Pattern into the physical realm. The two instances feel very similar to me. I would suggest that Windrunners-Honorspren-Windspren have a very similar relationship to Lightweavers-Cryptics-Creationspren.
@@@@@ many re: Shallash – In Baxil’s Interlude in WoK, she uses a padded mallet to wreck the statue, whereas here he’s using a chisel. Not sure if this is conclusive evidence one way or another, as she could have simply been using a different tool due to different circumstances, but I thought it was worth noting. Personally, I would be quite surprised if she were actually doing any hemalurgy here, but I’m not 100% sure we can completely rule it out.
73. jeremyguebert
I was thinking that too, but you put the details together better than I did.
On a different note, while I don’t expect Shallah is doing hemalurgy, I wonder if hemalurgy could heal dead spren, since it involves peices of souls and, essentially, surgery on those peices. Not that we could heal very many that way, at best.
I keep ‘misrembering’ stuff from LOTR. This time I transformed the LOTR character Denethor to Vasher-Kalad’s stone statues of Phantum soldiers containing human bones at their core. The correct term for them is D’Denir.
Jeremy@73 – I also find it rather unlikely that if the woman in the drawing is Shalash, that she is using a hemalurgic spike in this instance, as well (although I guess it’s possible). Shallan thinks the woman in her drawing was using a hammer and a chisel.
The reason that I’m at least open to the possibility of this woman using hemalurgy is because the text does state that the woman is kneeling “over a body,” as opposed to a statue. Shallan notes the body is “stiff, wooden…maybe even stone,” which raises some other questions.
But as far as the tool thing goes, in Baxil’s interlude we are told that his mistress requested a tool belt (although Baxil carried a full sack of tools); and the reader sees her use a knife (to slash the canvas of paintings), a cloth (to quietly shatter a vase), and then finally a padded mallet (to destroy a statue). Clearly, there were all types of tools in the sack for whatever the situation called for.
Huh, I though Hemalurgy was of Ruin since it was such an end native magic. I guess I was wrong. I’m not excited to see it elsewhere in the cosmere. It’s a pretty terrifying bad guy magic.
On on the actual chapter, I’m more perplexed that she can draw without knowing what she’s drawing than by the vision nature of her drawing. Even when you don’t know what you are going to draw you make decisions along the way. (Ooh, a heart here and a squiggle over here.) I would think that if you didn’t think about it at all the the result would be scribbles.
I’m totally with the doubters on the hemalurgy issue here. Sure, it could be magic. But sometimes a chisel is just a freakin chisel, guys, and so far we have no indication that the statues or works of art are special in any way other than the image they depict.
Until it’s in the books, I think statements like @49 are way overreaching. Heck, even when it’s in the books it’s not immutable (ref: today’s Kaladin/Szeth retcon for the paperback release)
Did you see my post @63?
I am totally new to the Cosmere (having read BS’s book for fun and just beginning this whole fun game of seeing the Cosmerelogical underpinnings of Everything), so I don’t have any personal tie to a hemalurgy theory of SA. But, if we’re looking for statues with potential powers to steal from, I thought I remembered that lighteyes didn’t bury or burn their dead, they turned them into statues. So I went looking and found this reference in WOK Ch27 p396 (ebook):
I wondered why on “Roshar” would they want to do that. Do you suppose all those KRs of old were turned into statues? Could Shalash (or someone else) be trying to retrieve something from their remains?
Also, WOB is that the sprens themselves can contribute some of their own Intent into the Bonds with their humans, so maybe that’s why Shallan has the ‘clairvoyant’ powers – a ‘essential’ contribution from Pattern? This is the most relaxed Shallan has been in a very long time (certainly since the shipwreck) and maybe her relaxation has unlocked a growing ability to access Memories from Pattern.
Another idea: this ‘tiny lait’ is a very special place, which Shallan herself has stated is “Divergent flora in an otherwise uniform ecosystem.” Possibly it’s an “Old Magical” place, special to Cultivation for some reason and Shallan’s presence there gives her special subconscious access to visions of Elsewhere (maybe via Pattern)?
And my last thought: I’ve always suspected that Yalb was special in a Sanderson ‘I’m not what you think I am’ sorta way. I’ve watched for clues, and been disappointed not to find any. Maybe this is such a clue?